Veneer

ani_101

Going to Try veneering. Looking for a good source of veneer. Also a couple of questions.

- Unbacked veneer - how to use? Use Heat Lock Glue? Most of the interesting veneers are raw veneers, though I am hesitant to use raw unbacked veneer as the first attempt

- PSA veneer - seems to be the easiest - On MDF, other than sanding (to 220 or 320?), any other prep needs to be done since it is a porous material? Does the MDF needs to be sealed - if so how? 

I am about to order a bunch of items from veneer supply. Currently, I am just looking to doing a straight forward box with butt joints, no bending, etc. Would a double layer of veneer over the butt joint be effective, or is there any other suggested method?

Thanks
Ani

R-Carpenter

Can you do miter joints?

ani_101

maybe, but the box I have now is butt jointed. How do you do miter on CNC? Usually do a step joint / groove to help align the box / brace etc.

R-Carpenter

I miter on the table saw. You can do miters on CNC couple of different ways but it's more time consuming. You can use 45miter bit and "engrave" in multiple steps or build a 3d model and use "horizontal roughing" milling and "horizontal finishing" with ball mill to arrive to the shape.

Kevin_Kendrick

Unbacked veneer is not that difficult to work with Ani.  If you're not dealing with any radius's, I would suggest cold pressing the veneer, not the heat lock.  The cold press method is pretty straight forward and simple.  You can do two sides at a time (opposites).  IMHO, sealing the MDF isn't worth the extra time required.  You will notice the glue soaks in pretty fast on unsealed MDF, just make sure you account for it and have good coverage.  Tom Zarbo uses sacrificial veneer to cover butt joints and he allows the enclosures to sit around for a good while before covering them in the veneer, seems like what he's doing works.  If you are in a hurry, miter joints are really the best option to avoid the dreaded ghosting effect.

Face

If you have butt ends, I would recommend a paper backed veneer and contact cement.

PWRRYD

Face said:

If you have butt ends, I would recommend a paper backed veneer and contact cement.

This is the only veneering process I've done thus far.  I'm happy with how these projects turned out.  So far I cannot see any seams ghosting through.

ani_101

What is the cold press method? Tim Z users hot glue as far I know, fr him video. Also, I am planning to go two layers on the joint side.

D1PP1N

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Titebond-Cold-Press-Veneer-Glue-Quart/164091583?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=897&adid=22222222228043358481&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=184113792875&wl4=pla-286709573906&wl5=9021536&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112354565&wl11=online&wl12=164091583&wl13=&veh=sem

I think tom does mostly paperbacked veneers if im not mistaken. . I have some of this glue and alot of raw veneer  but ive never done anything with it. I tried raw veneer with contact cement and the contact cement bleeds though and when your sanding / finishing i had like little gummy glue pieces getting stuck to my applicator (through the veneer). They just kept pulling up it was strange. 

S7910

To answer your sourcing question: I use veneersupplies.com , mostly for their selection both in species of veneer and sizes available.

R-Carpenter

You can make your own 2-layer veneer if you can join the leafs. I usually cross-laminate face veneer to a cheaper stable one, using Unibond or Urea resign. That creates a veneer with rigid layer of glue that's much less prone to ghosting.
Also, I posted this a while ago
http://diy.midwestaudio.club/discussion/226/cold-press-veneer-glue-unibond-one#latest
It's not good for iron-on veneering but perfect for cold pressing.

R-Carpenter

Cold press simply means that Hot press is not used. Glue cures either by means of chemical reaction or from water migrating away from the joint.
This is hot press

Ron_E

I've been using NBL veneer and the iron on method for years. I get my veneer from Tapeease. I'm tied up until late July but I could give you a demo if you want to come down after that. http://www.tapeease.com/

Ron

Kevin_Kendrick

ani_101 said:

What is the cold press method? Tim Z users hot glue as far I know, fr him video. Also, I am planning to go two layers on the joint side.

Ani, Cold pressing is simply pressing or clamping the veneer to the substrate until the glue dries.  It requires an additional panel the size of or a little larger then the veneer you are applying.  3/4" thick or thicker depending on how big the panels are.  You would roll the glue onto your substrate panel (speaker box), place the piece of veneer down over that, cover it with a sheet of wax paper and then place the clamping panel over the wax paper.  Use as many clamps as you can attach.  In most cases, you could do two sides at once, the opposite sides so they are both being clamped by the same clamps.  Also, when cold pressing, it's really important to be working with very flat veneer.  Sometimes this means you have to flatten the veneer by applying a softener and clamp it between two flat boards.  Usually overnight is long enough to get it flat.

Cold pressing does take longer than the Iron on method but it's safer on raw veneer, it's really easy to split raw veneer with the heat from the iron since the veneer doesn't have a backer.  I like the ability to actually see the real veneer I will be purchasing and like you said, most of that on Veneer Supplies website is unbacked.  If you don't mind the extra time involved, it's not difficult.

ani_101

Kevin_Kendrick said:

ani_101 said:

What is the cold press method? Tim Z users hot glue as far I know, fr him video. Also, I am planning to go two layers on the joint side.

Ani, Cold pressing is simply pressing or clamping the veneer to the substrate until the glue dries.  It requires an additional panel the size of or a little larger then the veneer you are applying.  3/4" thick or thicker depending on how big the panels are.  You would roll the glue onto your substrate panel (speaker box), place the piece of veneer down over that, cover it with a sheet of wax paper and then place the clamping panel over the wax paper.  Use as many clamps as you can attach.  In most cases, you could do two sides at once, the opposite sides so they are both being clamped by the same clamps.  Also, when cold pressing, it's really important to be working with very flat veneer.  Sometimes this means you have to flatten the veneer by applying a softener and clamp it between two flat boards.  Usually overnight is long enough to get it flat.

Cold pressing does take longer than the Iron on method but it's safer on raw veneer, it's really easy to split raw veneer with the heat from the iron since the veneer doesn't have a backer.  I like the ability to actually see the real veneer I will be purchasing and like you said, most of that on Veneer Supplies website is unbacked.  If you don't mind the extra time involved, it's not difficult.

Thanks Kevin, i'll give it a try, but still a bit apprehensive about clamping without a vaccum bag for even pressure. The videos i seen use all sorts from cauls to vaccum bags to really tiny pieces of veneer for demoing how to do it. 

ani_101

Ron_E said:

I've been using NBL veneer and the iron on method for years. I get my veneer from Tapeease. I'm tied up until late July but I could give you a demo if you want to come down after that. http://www.tapeease.com/

Ron

Thanks Ron, maybe we can try sometime in August. I will try to get another box ready by then and we can look at the crossover active or passive.

Kevin_Kendrick

ani_101 said:

 

Thanks Kevin, i'll give it a try, but still a bit apprehensive about clamping without a vaccum bag for even pressure. The videos i seen use all sorts from cauls to vaccum bags to really tiny pieces of veneer for demoing how to do it. 

What are the dimensions of the box you are building?

ani_101

13 x 18 x 8. The butt joints are on the top and bottom. veneer will be on sides and top. Bottom and back will be duratex, baffle is solid oak.

Kevin_Kendrick

I'm assuming the 13" or 8" number is your depth and the 18" number is the height.  If so, you should be fine.  For some added insurance, you could double up the 3/4" panels to make sure the middles are getting good pressure.

ani_101

8" is the depth and 13 is the depth and 18 is the height....

Silver1omo

I have limited experience, when I tested iron on with raw maple it cracked all the length (small test piece).
Contact cement with the same maple developed small cracks in the curse of 2 years and 1 move.
Then cold pressed the same maple and as far as I know (I made those for a coworker) they are ok.
My HT mains have paper backed mahogany and are still looking good after about 3 years.
My bedroom speakers and amp are cold pressed raw walnut and still look good after about 2 years.

So in my experience and small research iron on raw veneer can cause cracks (actually splits), so if you want to use this method test it in a scrap before.

Contact cement is very popular but the one I have tested gets lumpy when applying it and I hate the fumes.

Cold pressing with cauls and clamps works great and is easy with smallish pieces, if your substrate or pressing "plate" is less than perfectly straight you can add a "pressing aid". I used 3mm craft foam for a pair of speakers where the plywood had some high spots that I did not want to plane.

6thplanet

I use the cold press method. Roll standard wood glue on the box and the backed veneer. Stick the veneer on the box. J-roller it down. Flip the box (veneer side down) on my bench and throw some heavy items on the box as pressure. Let it sit over night, then flip the box back over and trim router it flush. Repeat till done.

ani_101

thanks Eric, that sounds doable!!!

Turn2

6thplanet said:

I use the cold press method. Roll standard wood glue on the box and the backed veneer. Stick the veneer on the box. J-roller it down. Flip the box (veneer side down) on my bench and throw some heavy items on the box as pressure. Let it sit over night, then flip the box back over and trim router it flush. Repeat till done.

This is what I do as well, except I use a length of PVC tubing like a rolling pin instead of the J-roller. I can put my full weight behind it, if I feel it's  needed. I often leave the box veneer side down overnight on a flat surface weighted with a 40 pound bucket of cat litter.

ani_101

Boxes veneered. Was in a hurry, so this is flat cut PSA maple from Rockler. Went on without too much of a hassle. Couple of issues:
1. What is the best method to cut veneer? I used kitchen sicssors and a box knife, wasn't the smoothest.
2. After routing, my trim bit is full of stuck gunk. I scraped off s much as I could, what's the best way to clean it?

PWRRYD

Soak the router bit in a little WD-40 over night.  The gunk should wipe off with very little effort.  Works for spray adheasive and contact cement as well.

PWRRYD

Forgot to say:  very nice looking boxes Ani.

I use an X-acto knife with a fresh blade and a sacrificial sheet of cardboard behind the veneer to rough cut it.  Works well with paper backed veneer (the only kind I've used thus far).

ani_101

Thanks Craig, I'll try your suggestion. Now I am going to spoil the nice maple veneer in an attention to stain it into modern art! 

Thanks Brian and Ron for the help and veneer sample. Now I have another thing to work with.

D1PP1N

Ive been using a razor and some router to trim it. To cut the veneer i just used my table saw! I migjt try the track saw next time. 

ani_101

Track saw might be useful though I don't have one. Which one do you use? 

jhollander

D1PP1N said:

 To cut the veneer i just used my table saw! I migjt try the track saw next time. 

+1, I add masking tape to the fence and table to prevent the veneer from slipping under the fence